red_eft: Sokka of Avatar: TLA holds up a picture of mountains (and a rainbow) (...you added a rainbow.)
Red Eft ([personal profile] red_eft) wrote2010-04-12 03:19 pm

All Things to Everyone / Run Run Away

So, the AO3 allowing original fic thing. To recap: the Archive of Our Own has put out a call for comments on whether or not to allow original fiction (under 'content policy'. I've been following the discussion with some interest- I've definitely gone from 'fairly opposed' to being not sure where I stand on it. I think if I were Queen of the OTW, I would just go with 'if you say it's fanfiction, then it is.' Period, no questions asked, no teams of roving admins trying to play gotcha.

However, there have been responses that say they have a hard time deciding what something is, and others that say no, they want to post things that they do not define as fanfiction, because they feel it's an important part of their fannish experience. 1

I... don't really understand these arguments? But that's okay! I don't have to understand them to accept that people feel strongly about them, and that I may be overlooking things because I've been in certain circles of fandom that do things a certain way. So I'm certainly open to argument and convincing on this. I don't want to tell anyone that they're doing fandom wrong, or minimize their experiences, or anything like that.

But. Because I am a selfish creature, I keep coming back to what's relevant to me, specifically: art 2. The OTW has said (At this time, we don't anticipate ever hosting non-fanwork art or video, regardless of what we decide about stories, because of the greater resource and policy demands.).

And here's the thing- every single argument that has been made about original fiction versus fanfiction can also be applied to original art and fanart. So I've been- honestly a little irritated, irrationally, at people making some of the above arguments, because *I'm* going to need to make this decision, so why can't you?

The obvious thing to say is 'well, move to open it to original art as well!' but I'm.. not actually sure that's a good idea? Art takes a *lot* of resources. And- I don't know how likely it is that the archive is likely to be overrun by original fiction, especially if, as has been suggested, they require people to have some fanfiction in order to upload original stuff.3 I don't know that an original writer is going to write a piece of fic in order to use an archive, but an artist? Pretty much every artist I know has done something that qualifies as fanart, even if most of their stuff is original. I'm pretty sure the AO3 doesn't want to become Deviantart, even if they have infinite money and servers, but if you open it up to original art I don't know how you'd prevent that from happening. So they're going to *have* to come up with some kind of definition of fanart, which is not going to be easier than a definition of fanfic.

Personally, I don't have a problem with having some things that fall into a gray area without allowing everything. A drawing of Batman? Fanart. A drawing of a gazelle you saw at the zoo? Not fanart. A drawing of that gazelle as Batman? Eh, up to you. And again, I'm not into policing that. If I say 'This picture looks an awful lot like a painting of a cat' and you say 'Ah, but it is in fact, John Sheppard, who has been turned into a cat!', I'll roll with it, even if your John Sheppard cat looks suspiciously like the photos of *your* cat that you posted on your journal. But there have to be artists out there that feel as strongly about wanting those grey areas defined/original art being important to their fannishness as the writers do. And it *bothers* me that they wouldn't get the same treatment, even though I understand the practical reasons. I don't know what the solution to that is- it seems petty to say 'well, if I can't do it, neither can you, so nyah!'

I guess what it comes down to is, if the archive allows original fic and not original art, etc, it becomes- to me, anyway- a fiction archive with some multimedia bonuses. Which, again, is an okay thing to be! I would rather have a fiction archive that allows me to upload my fanart than one where I can't participate at all (except reading and commenting, of course). But I'd sort of got the impression that's not what they wanted to be.

1. I debated about linking the actual posts here, because somehow it seems... accusatory? I don't mean it to be, though; I'm including them because I dislike posts that are part of a larger discussion that say 'I've heard people say blah blah blah' and then you find the post you think they were referring to and it doesn't say that at all. Also, because these are not really arguments I understand yet, I may be misinterpreting, and linking to the post itself allows people to form their own conclusions. [back]

2. I don't actually know what an original vid would look like, but I'm sure there's something! However, since art's what I'm familiar with, that's what I'm sticking to in this post. [back]

3. I am resistant to this idea, for some reason. I think I feel like if you're going to allow something, then just allow it. And that really does bring up more questions about enforcing the rules- is one drabble enough to allow for your 50,000 word NaNo Novel? What all your 'fanfiction' is in those grey areas that have been brought up so much? I think saying 'if you post an original work here, you must allow fanfic' is reasonable, though. [back]


ratcreature: zen? or not. Animated pic, that first shows RatCreature calm,  then angry. (zen)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-13 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
So I've been- honestly a little irritated, irrationally, at people making some of the above arguments, because *I'm* going to need to make this decision, so why can't you?


Yes. I'm pretty much in the same place with this discussion. I do understand that original work can be important to your fandom experience. I have been in comic fandom for many many years and for much of that before I found online tv fandom most of fan creativity I knew was making amateur original stuff. Like the only thing I've ever published in a fanzine was an original comic I did as a teenager. Making that was certainly fanactivity by comic fandom standards, as I met with a bunch of other teenage comic fans to make a non-profit comic zine, but I was being fannish about the medium, not a particular source.

And much of SF and fantasy art is about being a genre fan, just like writing in those genres is. But if I need to make a call whether some dragon drawing that started out as Temeraire fanart, but then I didn't stick with any of the dragon descriptions there, is still fanart, then writers can do the same.

And FWIW I think an original vid would be vidding with footage you filmed yourself, or things like original animation and such, but still set to music.
alias_sqbr: Are you coming to bed? I can't, this is important. Why? Someone is wrong on the internet. (duty calls)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-13 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, thankyou for articulating something that's been bugging me throughout all this. Especially since I make fic, art, and comics and have posted all three to AO3, so any question about one makes me think of the others, but it's clear that most people are definitely only thinking about fic.

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-13 09:57 am (UTC)(link)
Well put, thank you. Much as I enjoy original work, if the proposed expansion cannot be considered for all kinds of fanworks then it should not be awarded to any. What's insufficient about user profiles linking to their non-fannish work?
ratcreature: RL? What RL? RatCreature is a net addict.  (what rl?)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-13 10:26 am (UTC)(link)
What's insufficient about user profiles linking to their non-fannish work?

Well, it's the same that makes having an archive better than just having personal spaces for fanworks. Not everyone may have such a space available, also it would lack the intention to be a permanent thing, archiving works permanently, beyond your own involvement in fandom, and it would not be accessible through the archives thematic searches.

The first I think actually applies even more to fanart than to text, because for example free picture hosts (and many other places) will not let you host explicit images in their TOS, but it is also true that many webhosts (at least affordable ones) have rules against using it for all kinds of porn. And obviously if you drop dead tomorrow, and three months later your webhosting expires, your archive account will still be there, hopefully as long as OTW will exist.

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-14 07:16 am (UTC)(link)
I'll have to disagree respectfully here; the only places where I expect my stuff to be left alone and stored permanently are those I bought. It's noble of OTW to offer all this to fanworks and more for free, but I'd be very skeptical as to its feasibility. (As for the post-mortem argument, frankly I'd be happy for my non-original (and non-gift/collab) internet stuff to die with me because I only want it to be hosted for as long as I can have some contact with it, if not control.)
ratcreature: RL? What RL? RatCreature is a net addict.  (what rl?)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-14 08:18 am (UTC)(link)
But besides the advocacy stuff a major goal of OTW is to preserve fannish history and works permanently. That's why they do the zine collection stuff, and collect fanzines to bring them into university libraries, why fanlore collects oral history of fandom, why they offer the Open Doors thing to preserve fan archives when the archivists can't do it anymore, why they offer the option to orphan works at the archive so you can vanish your pseud/name without taking your works with you etc. The intention of the archive is to be a free, permanent storage space for everyone for their fanworks, financed by donations of present and hopefully future fans to OTW. Whether that'll be feasible only time will show, I guess, but that's the goal. To preserve fannish history beyond the lives of single fans.

If you don't want that for your stuff, that's your preference, but plenty of fans, myself included, want that permanence and security for theirs, and while the OTW is new yet and can't offer proof that they'll be able to provide it beyond infrastructure goroundwork of a non-profit that doesn't rely on any single fan, they provide the hope for it. Whereas right now the best I can do is to let my fanart be indexed by google and accessed by archive.org, and hope that maybe something will survive for longer by happenstance.

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-14 08:26 am (UTC)(link)
Right - and I agree, skepticism in re: longevity notwithstanding, that it's a great project - but I still can't see how this extends to original work. The argument (that I've seen linked to from metafandom, among other places) that being in fandom makes all of one's work "fannish" is shabby at best.
ratcreature: RL? What RL? RatCreature is a net addict.  (what rl?)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-14 08:53 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah. Also I think even if a work is "fannish" in the sense that it is by fans made in the context a fan community, that is still too broad, mostly because you can be a fan of genres and mediums, like science fiction fans, comic fans, movie fans, and be fannish that context and produce works, like writing original science fiction or publishing your autobiographical comic zine or making your no-budget amateur film etc etc, and that definition of "fanwork" would include pretty much anything with a creative community or at least all amateur/non-profit work, and I think that is overextending things.

And I think it would be unfair and unworkable to single special genres out, and make rules like "okay, we accept yaoi as genre for which both original and fanworks are allowed but not romance". Asking that the work is based on some other text/canon/source specifically is much fairer than that.

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-14 07:21 am (UTC)(link)
I must say that I don't entirely buy the convenience argument, but that's just my understanding of how the internet tends to work and I can't - nor would I want to - insist that anyone agrees with it. But the "why only this group" argument is the best and most solid one I've seen with regards to this whole question.
elf: OTW logo & text (OTW text)

[personal profile] elf 2010-04-15 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't actually know what an original vid would look like

Stop-action photography of a Lego-based space battle? No identifiable canonical ships, with a song that's about battles or explosions or something like that?

If I say 'This picture looks an awful lot like a painting of a cat' and you say 'Ah, but it is in fact, John Sheppard, who has been turned into a cat!', I'll roll with it

I think that's about where I am. I care less about original work "sneaking in" than being fandom-inclusive. I'm somewhat concerned about how to label fanworks that don't fit into obvious media-fandom categories (e.g. the novelization of a D&D game), but that's an interface problem more than a policy problem.
thirdblindmouse: The captain, wearing an upturned pitcher on his head, gazes critically into the mirror. (my collection of M's (SH))

months later...

[personal profile] thirdblindmouse 2010-08-29 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
At VividCon a year or two ago there was an entire vidshow of maybe-fanvids-maybe-not. One was John Sheppard as a tree, or something like that.